Hey Friends, I know it's not Saturday and I just posted to the Blog a few days ago but I wanted to share with you a dialogue that took place on Larry King Live on March 11, 2003. It was around the question, "What would Jesus do about the war in Iraq?" This conversation highlights the issue I brought up in last week's post. I want to state for record, that I agree whole heartily with John MacArthur. There is only one God and one Savior through whom we have access to the Father and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Regardless of what the Ecumenical Officer of the United Methodist Church (Bishop Melvin Talbert) claims, Jesus is the only way to the Father. That is not my claim but the claim of Jesus himself. Here is the conversation that took place between Larry King, John MacArthur, Max Lucado, and Melvin Talbert.
King: Saddam says he prays.
MacArthur: Saddam Hussein? I'm sure he does.
King: He prays five times a day. He believes he's right. He must be praying to something.
MacArthur: Well, it's the wrong God unfortunately. There is only one true and living God, and that's the God of the scripture. The God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. And if you aren't praying to that God, you are praying to no one.
King: He doesn't believe that. How do you deal with that? His belief may be as strong as your belief.
MacArthur: You could believe that you could fly and jump off a five-story building. It doesn't make it real. Unfortunately, false religion is the ultimate deception...
King: is the Muslim world all false?
MacArthur: Well, the theology of Islam is false. It's the wrong God. It's the wrong view of Christ.
King: When they hear that, don't they get anti-American thoughts...
MacArthur: It has nothing to do with America. I would say it if I were French.
King: They think yours is the wrong God.
MacArthur: Well, they do. But there has to be truth and untruth. Once you've established the truth, and I think the word of God has been established as true -- I think it can hold up under the most intense scrutiny -- and other books do not.
King: Don't you believe, Bishop Talbert, that Christianity is the right path?
Talbert: I do believe for Christians, but we're not here to settle which religion is right. That dispute belongs to God. We are here to practice what we preach.
King: Do you believe your religion is right?
Talbert: Yes I do.
King: Or else why believe it?
Talbert: That is right.
King: So therefore, the other religions have to be wrong.
Talbert: No, I don't say that at all.
King: If you believe your religion is right, the other religions are wrong.
Talbert: I believe my God is large enough to be inclusive of all human beings who were created in God's image, and that includes those religions that are not Christians.
MacArthur: I want to ask a question. Why did Jesus say -- why did Paul say -- if any man preaches any other Christ than the true Jesus Christ, let him be cured? Why does the Bible say neither is there salvation in any other name than Jesus Christ? Why doe the scripture condemn anyone who rejects Jesus Christ and the gospel of Christ? Why is the message so exclusive?
Talbert: For me, salvation in Jesus Christ is the way, and what I try to do as a Christian is to live that example. My responsibility is not to convert all other religions, but to live the Christian faith in the face of those religions. Are you going to say that my -- our friend on the show tonight who is Jewish is on the wrong path? That's God's choice. That's God's judgment, not mine.
King: Max, what is your view of Islam?
Lucado: Well, I guess it depends on if you're asking it from a political or religious point of view.
King: I guess from religious.
Lucado: Religious point of view -- it is a different approach to God than the Christian approach to God. My understanding as a Christian is that we're saved by what Christ did for us, whereas the Islamic faith says we're saved by what we do for God.
King: But do you think, Bishop Talbert, that these differing opinions are leading to lots of conflict in the world?
Talbert: I believe they're leading for a lot of conflicts because we do not open ourselves o each other and learn and grow. I have talked with Muslim leaders. They are -- the ones that I have met -- very fine people. They're on their way as certain as I am on my way. And what we need to do is to be tolerant with each other and not assume that our way is the only way.
Well, Mr. Talbert, what we really need is to be truthful with each other and with people of all nations and religions, sharing with them the love of God in Jesus Christ. We need to share the Gospel that Paul preached and no other. Jesus is not "Our Way". He is "The Way". It is not an assumption at all, but the very truth spoken by the Lord of all creation. John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." This is from the lips of Christ. You can't take Jesus and throw away his words..
Peace, David
Hi David, This is Dick -- PR -- Pastor Riley, just in cause you didn't know who it was since I've never blogged before. To the subject of your blog, I wish Max Lucado would've had an opportunity to express himself more than he did. Through the reading of his many books, I know, and am sure that you know, that he is a very bible based, Christ centered man of God who knows, believes, preaches, and writes about the fact that Christ and Christ alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. What he stated to Larry King is, in fact, true. It's just too bad that King didn't ask more from him about the issue.
ReplyDeleteBishop Talbert on the other hand is a wishy-washy take-no-stand, liberal United Methodist. It's unfortunate that he represented our denomination. There could have been many other choices of conservative, bible believing, Christ centered, Holy Spirit inspired pastors, superintendents, or bishops who could have set the record straight and could have done so in a firm but grace filled way.
David, you and I have had this conversation many times in the past. You and I both know that there are leaders in every denomination who do not believe in biblical truth. That is most unfortunate and we should pray for them and, at the same time, make sure that others know what the biblical truth is -- in love and grace. In Matthew 7, Jesus tells us not to judge others. I believe this to be true in every aspect of our faith and therefore I leave the judging to God, not to others. I look forward to hearing from you. - PR
Thanks Pastor Dick for taking the time to visit and comment. Here are my thoughts:
ReplyDeleteMax had the opportunity in this venue to lift Jesus up as Lord. He heard the dialogue between John MacArthur and Larry King and he also heard the pluralist views of Talbert and he also was wishy washy. I like Max Lucado and his writing but the rubber meets the road when we are asked to take a stand for the truth of who Jesus is.
As far as Talbert goes, I agree it is a shame that the UMC places men who don't believe in the deity or Lordship of Christ is this position. And here is where I am REALLY struggling. You are right in saying there could be many other choices who could have set the record straight but there is absolutely no standard within the denomination for Pastors to hold to the truth of the Word, the divinity of Jesus, the need for salvation through his work on the cross, his bodily resurrection, or any other doctrine. There are a minimum of four UMC churches locally who are shepherded by pastors who don't believe the Bible and believe that all religions lead to God and that Jesus is only one of many ways to the Father. If a friend of mine came to faith or was searching for truth I couldn't tell him to go down the street to the local UMC. Actually, I wouldn't tell him that. I have no idea whether he would be taught truth or if he would hear "We pray to the spirit by whatever name we call him." from the prayer person on Sunday morning. The leadership of the UMC (and a number of other denominations) are not holding their pastors accountable. Why? Because they themselves are leaning toward pluralism.
Jesus, in Matthew 7, said the measure we use will be measured to us. I hold myself to the same standard of Biblical truth. Clearly, Paul must have not read Matthew 7 this way when he said, "If anyone preach a Gospel other than the one we preach, let him be eternally cursed." I have prayed for these men and for the denomination but Paul admonished the churches when they strayed from sound doctrine. That is what Spirit filled leadership does. He told us that there would come a day when men would not put up with sound doctrine but would surround themselves with teachers who would tell them what their itching ears wanted to hear. If we have no idea what is being taught under the roof of a church building that has a cross and a UMC sign then how can we lead sheep to those doors?
Peace in Christ,
David
Dear David, Thank you for responding to my blog. It's clear to me that you and I share alot of the same feelings and I think that rather than simply blogging one another, we should sit down over a cup of coffee and have some
ReplyDeleteshare-and-prayer time. If this sounds good to you, let me know - PR
Thank you David and Dick for the original blog and both of your responses. I was raised as a life long United Methodist and my beliefs have echoed Bishop Talbert's. However, after reading the blog and your discussions you both have started me rethinking about that belief. Thank you for the work you both do and for the challenges that you both continue to provide me in my thinking and faith walk.
ReplyDeleteLisa W.
I'd love to see more people post to this discussion. Like David, I am deeply concerned about "the church" (with a little "c")in mainstream America. Without Jesus Christ as son of God, crucified and resurrected to atone for our sin we have no reason to call ourselves christians. With the validity of the bible called into question (or any part of it) we have no basis to believe in anything it says. If there are multiple ways to salvation (for those who even acknowledge that we need it to begin with) then the person named Jesus was a liar or at least mentally ill.
ReplyDeleteThis whole thing isn't about judging those who don't believe or who are mislead about Christ, it is about calling out those who claim to follow him. THAT is the issue. If you call yourself a follower of Christ or particularly if you are a leader or teacher in the Christian faith, the bible specifically addresses the fact that you (we, me) are accountable to a different standard in this matter. David quotes Paul right to the heart of this matter. If you call yourself a representative of Jesus Christ, you are to preach Him as Lord alone, son of God, crucified, resurrected, and oh yeah...returning as the judge of this world.
This is not about judging a person who has made a mistake because we need to acknowledge that we too make mistakes. These religious men of Christian leadership are responsible for harming the children of the Lord and it would be better for them to have a milstone around their necks. I pray that they get right with God and I'm not tying any milstones myself. Just reporting the facts and believe it or not...in true love.
And by the way, Max Lucado definitely had his opportunity and he definitely finked out. I am calling him out on this moment, not any of his previous writings or sermons. He knew exactly where he was and what was at stake. Hopefully he is convicted over his omission and will step up next time.
-Ivor